Forum Activity for @dulcimaryland

DulciMaryland
@dulcimaryland
02/01/24 02:27:08PM
4 posts

Intonation Problems


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Dwain Wilder:
DulciMaryland:

Thanks, Ken. The action is significantly higher than that; I could probably put 3 dimes!

This is a great place to start 

 

I agree.

One way to finalize the optimum action height the dulcimer is capable of is to find out the minimum saddle height at which the bass string doesn't buzz, then add .005". A set of number drills (1-60) is great for this, since each drill is a very small variant of its neighboring drills' diameter. So remove the bridge and substitute a number drill. Intonation doesn't matter for this test of course, but you do want to be tuned to playing pitch.

 

This is genius. What about the nut? Remove that and replace with a closely sized bit, too?

Dwain Wilder
@dwain-wilder
02/01/24 02:12:58PM
74 posts

Intonation Problems


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

DulciMaryland:

Thanks, Ken. The action is significantly higher than that; I could probably put 3 dimes!

This is a great place to start 

 

I agree.

One way to finalize the optimum action height the dulcimer is capable of is to find out the minimum saddle height at which the bass string doesn't buzz, then add .005". A set of number drills (1-60) is great for this, since each drill is a very small variant of its neighboring drills' diameter. So remove the bridge and substitute a number drill. Intonation doesn't matter for this test of course, but you do want to be tuned to playing pitch.

Pluck the bass string at each fret forcefully (sideways, not vertically). Substitute the next smaller or larger drill bit shank, depending on whether you find a buzzing fret. If you find a buzz on only a single fret, consider dressing that fret crown down a bit. After you've found a drill shank that represents the minimum action height on the bass, check for buzzes on the other strings. That's a check of the whole fingerboard's surface regularity, and the possibility that some frets aren't well seated or have worn or grooved crowns.


updated by @dwain-wilder: 02/01/24 02:13:40PM
Strumelia
@strumelia
02/01/24 01:49:57PM
2,403 posts

John Molineux box dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

ok so it's the fret pattern, not technically the 'pegbox' or tuning mechanisms that are opposite mirrored for duet playing. I was just assuming the peghead was usually at the 'fret 1' end of the fretboard, but there's nothing saying you can't put the tuning pins at what we consider to be the tail end of the box.

Ken Longfield
@ken-longfield
02/01/24 01:15:22PM
1,337 posts

John Molineux box dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Yes, they are mirrored. Somewhere in my files I have some photos of early courting dulcimers. I'll try to see if I can find one, digitize it, and share it here. It may take me a while to do so.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Wildcat
@wildcat
02/01/24 12:54:38PM
21 posts

Intonation Problems


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

@ken-longfield Great info, saved for future reference, thank you

@dulcimaryland Looking for ward to hearing your results and experience. 🍿

DulciMaryland
@dulcimaryland
02/01/24 12:26:39PM
4 posts

Intonation Problems


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks, Ken. The action is significantly higher than that; I could probably put 3 dimes!

This is a great place to start 

cairney
@steve-c
02/01/24 12:24:11PM
99 posts

John Molineux box dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions



in John M Own words:
Of course, what everyone wants to know about is the dulcichord, the intriguing instrument pictured on the cover of Douce Amere which looks like the result of a drunken liaison between a dulcimer and a pedal-steel guitar..... “I wanted a harpsichord-kind of sound, and studied how they were made.  The top is floating- it is only attached to the sides, and there is a gap at both ends.  It was made from very good quality guitar tone wood and was braced on the underside using the fan-bracing system invented by Torres for Spanish guitars.  It has two fingerboards, both of five single courses (DADAD) and both fully fretted.  The bridges are only lightly held in place by the strings, there is no great pressure exerted.  The levers pressed down to form barre chords on the furthest fingerboard.  I used to play organ so was used to playing foot pedals.  Unfortunately, the lever mechanism, though it worked perfectly well, was a bit noisy, and I virtually never used it, not even on the record! I still have the instrument, and in fact used it at a gig a couple of nights ago.  It looks good and gives out enough volume for an audience of 70 or so, without the need to amplify it.  The cover painting was a gift from a local artist, and is pretty accurate, even down to the wing-nuts (to dismantle the instrument for transport)”.



Ken Longfield
@ken-longfield
02/01/24 11:59:13AM
1,337 posts

Intonation Problems


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

The first thing I would do is check to see that, if the bridge is moveable, it is in the right place. If it isn't moveable, checking the action is a good start. A general rule of thumb is that the strings should just touch a dime when placed next to the first fret. I place the dime on the side toward the second fret. Then place a nickel on the seventh fret and the strings should just touch the nickel. If that adjustment doesn't work, then I would calculate the proper fret spacing for the vibrating string length of the dulcimer. Some programs let you print out a template. I would use this to check the fret spacing and re-fret if necessary.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."


updated by @ken-longfield: 02/01/24 12:00:41PM
Strumelia
@strumelia
02/01/24 11:58:23AM
2,403 posts

John Molineux box dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

KenL- but... are those also having the frets going in the same direction? I suspect the fret pattern will be 'mirrored' if intended for couple playing on facing knees... even if the tuning mechanisms (pins, pegs) are both on the same end. Hmm, I probably should have clarified that.

Robin Thompson
@robin-thompson
02/01/24 11:52:47AM
1,553 posts

instrument question- Stephens Lutherie/holy grail dulcimer?


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

@lilley-pad My experience is I play the mountain dulcimer with the sound I want to fit the repertoire(s) I want to play.  Also, my experience is there is no Holy Grail.dulcimer Depending on style of play and repertoire, one instrument may suit over another.    

Bob Stephens is a member here at FOTMD and you can find his page by searching members.  Here is a video of Aaron O'Rourke playing a prototype (so, an early model) of one of Bob's wonderful-sounding dulcimers: 

https://youtu.be/EPClQt6v0Z0?si=0D_xkDv1OR9fTkH7


updated by @robin-thompson: 02/01/24 12:34:58PM
Ken Longfield
@ken-longfield
02/01/24 11:46:37AM
1,337 posts

John Molineux box dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Strumelia, I'm glad that you wrote "in general" as there are courting dulcimers out there that do have two fret boards with the peg heads at the same end of the dulcimer but fretted for playing by two people sitting knee to knee. I think this design makes the dulcimer shorter and easier to carry because you don't have peg heads sticking out on both ends.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

DulciMaryland
@dulcimaryland
02/01/24 10:48:47AM
4 posts

Intonation Problems


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I have an old dulcimer, 1977, which has an intonation problem. It frets sharp. I'm handy enough that I'm willing to attempt to fix it myself. I suspect that if I lower the action, it might fix the intonation. Am I on the right track or is my only option to adjust the distance between the nut and bridge?


updated by @dulcimaryland: 02/01/24 08:32:00PM
Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
02/01/24 10:39:12AM
2,157 posts

instrument question- Stephens Lutherie/holy grail dulcimer?


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Like John I've not heard of Stephens Lutherie.  And I also agree with John that there is no one Perfect Dulcimer, ... there is only what YOU find best for your playing style  Having just googled Stephens, I see a guitar luthier trying to improve the mountain dulcimer... 

The "floating fretboard" you see isn't that.  That's a "discontinuous" fretboard.  99% of dulcimer have a fretboard that runs all the way from the head to the tail.  The fretboard you see is 'guitar-like' -- it stops after the last fret, then there is nothing until a block for holding the bridge in its proper location and height.   

Some people will try to tell you that having the fretboard stop short will increase the tops' ability to flex and produce better sound. Truth is such an arrangement requires a lot of extra bracing under the top to prevent string pressure from warping the top downward.  That bracing does more to dampen sound than improve it and negates almost any advantage you might gain.

  Unlike the guitar, the dulcimer simply does not have enough top area available for such a scheme to work well.  I build a number of similar dulcimers 30 or more years ago, but discontinued the process because it was a lot more labor intensive for very little, if any measurable improvement in the sound quality.

Strumelia
@strumelia
02/01/24 10:28:40AM
2,403 posts

John Molineux box dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

NateBuildsToys:
It's hard to imagine what aspect of that dulcimer would be patented.
 

As a professional patent illustrator for a living over the past 25 years and counting, i can maybe shed some light on that.  nerd2
There are utility patents and design patents. Utility patents cover the creation of a new or improved product, process, or machine- patenting its function -how it's used and how it works. (example: a new type of braking system for a bicycle or train)  Design patents protect how an article looks - its shape, configuration or surface ornamentation. (example, a new designer backpack or lamp)


If a new invention contains both unique function/use AND unique shape, appearance, or decoration, one can apply for both utility and design patents for that article.


We'd have to see the 'prospectus' or description accompanying that 1880s patent in order to see what aspects were being applied for. Perhaps it was the first US patent for a double fretboard box zither to be played by two people (utility patent). OR, perhaps it was for having those shape-note like indicators for each note right on the fretboard, as a music reading aid system (design patent). Could be any combination of a number of things both functional and design-wise being applied for. The official Patent Office description accompanying the drawings would explain what exactly was being patented.


updated by @strumelia: 02/01/24 10:42:54AM
Strumelia
@strumelia
02/01/24 10:06:38AM
2,403 posts

John Molineux box dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I think that in general, older dulcimers with double fretboards were meant to be played by a couple sitting facing each other knee to knee, playing it on their laps in duet. That means the two fretboards are mirrored (one peghead being on one end of the box and the other peghead at the other end of the box). These were called 'courting dulcimers'.

Double fretboard dulcimers that are meant to be tuned and played in different keys, tunings, or octaves by one musician tend to be more modern and can be played by switching quickly between the fretboards. Those instruments will have the two fretboards facing in the same direction so the instrument does not have to be physically turned around to switch fretboards on the fly. Bing Futch's custom double dulcimer is this way.

Strumelia
@strumelia
02/01/24 09:45:24AM
2,403 posts

Is there an option to order replies from oldest to newest ?


Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

Hi, thanks for this question.
The software used for running FOTMD does not allow individual members to re-order forum or group discussions. My choice for which order to use was based on the fact that about 50% of users now browse FOTMD from their phones or tablets, and having to scroll down through multiple pages (to check the latest post in a long discussion they are participating in) on a phone would be such an immense turnoff to many users that they might not want to remain here at all. So I'm afraid the 'newest posts on top' is the way to go these days... the same order as one finds on mobile device 'feeds' such as facebook, twitter, etc.
Sorry to disappoint you!  shrugger


updated by @strumelia: 02/01/24 09:48:25AM
John C. Knopf
@john-c-knopf
02/01/24 09:18:58AM
445 posts

instrument question- Stephens Lutherie/holy grail dulcimer?


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Ah, the search for the elusive "perfect instrument"!  It probably does not exist (just as the perfect spouse does not exist), but luthiers like me try to build the optimal dulcimer for each customer.

I have not encountered Stephens Lutherie.

Lilley Pad
@lilley-pad
02/01/24 08:40:22AM
71 posts

instrument question- Stephens Lutherie/holy grail dulcimer?


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Any one tried a Stephens Lutherie dulcimer? he has a floating fret-board design for lack of a better word?

I think I’m catching that disease that seems to run through the musical community.  Which explains why so many people have multiple instruments.  Not just dulcimer players but everyone in general.  They are all looking for the Holy Grail that one instrument out there somewhere, which has everything all in one instrument. Is beautiful, and has that perfect volume, sustain, balance, tone and range.  SMILE 


updated by @lilley-pad: 02/11/24 02:32:37PM
Rachel
@rachel
02/01/24 07:12:30AM
6 posts

Is there an option to order replies from oldest to newest ?


Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

Hi Nicolas!  I’m new at this myself. I like the idea of the first comment/response being at the top of the thread. There’s a scenario I wonder if the reverse order would be of benefit. Let’s say you’re following a discussion. If you get a notification that there is a new comment in a discussion you’re following, you open the link, I think you’d initially see the title of the discussion and the oldest (first) comment/response, then have to scroll down to see the most recent response. But I think I get what you’re saying. It’s easier to follow a conversation from beginning to end and it’s less likely you’ll miss information. 
I know that doesn’t help your question/comment. Maybe someone knows if there’s a toggle that reorganizes the time line.


updated by @rachel: 02/01/24 07:14:44AM
Nate
@nate
02/01/24 04:10:33AM
442 posts

John Molineux box dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

The dulcimer in the video is very cool and relates to some ideas I've been thinking about lately (such as fingerboards that do not touch any edges of the instrument)
It's hard to imagine what aspect of that dulcimer would be patented. It is notable that the second fret board does not have strings or a bridge. My first guess would be that it is intended to have a lower register of deeper pitch strings. This seems likely, since it only has one octave worth of frets.
Another guess would be that the second fretboard is meant to play in a different key. Bing Futch has a Folkcraft dulcimer with two separate fretboards in different keys. 
Either way thanks for sharing
Nate

nicolas_fr
@nicolas-fr
02/01/24 03:46:26AM
4 posts

Is there an option to order replies from oldest to newest ?


Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

Hello everyone,

I am fairly new on this great forum and I have not yet figure out how to order replies from a post from oldest to newest. Said differently I would love to be able to see the initial post, then just under it the first reply, then the second reply, and so on.

Today, what I am doing is scroll all the way down to the page (use load more comments if the discussion has a lot of replies) and read from bottom to top.

Did I miss something ?

Have a great day all,

nicolas

Nate
@nate
02/01/24 03:45:48AM
442 posts

New instruments that I have no clue about!


Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

These are undeniably super cool. I am grateful that you shared these, but I would think the best person to tell you what they are would be your grandfather himself? The first instrument is very cool to me due to its fret layout. It is interesting to think about why the second string would be chromatic and not the first. Maybe it would allow the second string to be tuned to a major 3rd and still play diatonically. 
Would love to know if anyone knows more about the bizarre fret layout on the first photo. It reminds me of a citera.
Thanks
Nate


updated by @nate: 02/01/24 03:47:49AM
Nate
@nate
02/01/24 02:28:00AM
442 posts

Reasons NOT To Get a Chromatic


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

#1 Reason NOT To Get a Chromatic Dulcimer:
You don't have to defend or rationalize it's place as a dulcimer. 
giggle2

Dusty Turtle
@dusty
02/01/24 02:20:41AM
1,848 posts

Reasons NOT To Get a Chromatic


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

It's too bad that this conversation, which started with such a reasonable question (even if it demands a parallel conversation on reasons to get a chromatic) has descended into a series of diatribes in which people offer differing definitions of an instrument that has been innovative and evolving for its entire history.  None of this has anything to do with the original question.

Yes, as Nate says, "qualifiers."  

There are guitars, 12-string guitars, solid-body electric guitars, tenor guitars, baritone guitars, etc.

There are dulcimers, baritone dulcimers, octave dulcimers, chromatic dulcimers, electric dulcimers, etc.

No controversy needed.

The dulcimer is a young instrument. For its entire history, it has been evolving.  Those first dulcimers had frets only under the melody string.  Does that mean that dulcimers with strings across the fretboard are not dulcimers?  Those first dulcimers also used friction tuners.  Does that mean dulcimers with mechanical tuners are not dulcimers?  Those first dulcimers were likely made solely of local hardwoods.  Does that mean a dulcimer with a redwood top is not a real dulcimer? Any effort to define a dulcimer by a limited number of construction characteristics is random and denies the long history of creative innovation among dulcimer builders and players.

The Jean Ritchie model dulcimer (made in that great Appalachian state of California!) has a Honduras mahogany fingerboard, rosewood overlay, ebony nut and saddle, mechanical tuners, and a 6-1/2 fret.  Those first dulcimers on which Jean learned had none of those elements, yet she recognized that they improved the instrument and supported them.  The rest of us might do the same.

Nate
@nate
02/01/24 02:20:15AM
442 posts

Vintage dulcimer information sought


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I agree that the wood piece is meant to simply space the strings at the correct distance from eachother, and the dark colored 'bar' is the actual bridge. It would explain the extra notch. That would correspond to a "course" of melody strings, it if were strung '3 string equidistant with a melody course.' From the image, the dark colored 'bridge' seems to straddle the fingerboard, with small 'legs' that go down off both sides. I assume that piece of light colored wood was added specifically to modify it to be able to play 3 string equidistant.
Out of curiousity, I'd love to know how much this dulcimer cost at an antique shop.
Look forward to you learning more about it and sharing with us
Nate


updated by @nate: 02/01/24 02:23:22AM
Nate
@nate
02/01/24 01:57:18AM
442 posts

Reasons NOT To Get a Chromatic


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Ken Hulme:

If it has more than diatonic frets, or more than 3 courses of strings, technically an instrument is no longer a dulcimer, it is a Fretted Zither.  "Tomay-to tomaatoe", but diatonic fret spacing is part of what defines a dulcimer.

 
I'd love to find the first man to call an Appalachian zither a 'dulcimer' and ask him his definition. I wonder if it would be so general that most modern instruments fit in, or so strict that none of us meet the cut.
I think the standards you apply to dulcimer are not be applied to other instruments. A seven string guitar is a guitar, and a micro tonal guitar is a guitar.
In my view, a dulcimer that is different is just a dulcimer with qualifiers. Whether a chromatic dulcimer, a 1, 2, 4 or 5 string equidistant dulcimer, a resonator dulcimer, a lego dulcimer, they all count as dulcimers, but are not simply a dulcimer.
Might not be 'just a dulcimer' but it's 'more a dulcimer than it is something else.'
Nate
@nate
02/01/24 01:46:47AM
442 posts

Just For Fun - sayings regarding the dulcimer or music


OFF TOPIC discussions

Ken Hulme:

@shanonmilan --the vast majority of us (traditionalists and moderns) play dulcimer horizontally -- "string side up" on our laps or on a table or stand.  There are a few who play it more vertically -- like a guitar...


 
I play behind my back, Like Stevie Ray Vaughn.
I like to leave my best performances behind me  ROTFL
Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
01/31/24 07:15:05AM
2,157 posts

Just For Fun - sayings regarding the dulcimer or music


OFF TOPIC discussions

@shanonmilan --the vast majority of us (traditionalists and moderns) play dulcimer horizontally -- "string side up" on our laps or on a table or stand.  There are a few who play it more vertically -- like a guitar...


updated by @ken-hulme: 01/31/24 07:16:18AM
shanonmilan
@shanonmilan
01/31/24 03:51:24AM
67 posts

Just For Fun - sayings regarding the dulcimer or music


OFF TOPIC discussions

Ken Hulme:

How do you play the dulcimer?   String side up.

Do you play it like a reso guitar, with the dulcimer resting on your lap?
Art S
@art-s
01/30/24 09:53:39PM
24 posts

Vintage dulcimer information sought


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks for the feedback everyone. You have given me confidence that I may have a playable instrument. 

Btw: T and St meant Tone and Semi-tone, not Tall and Short. Sorry for the confusion.

Ken Longfield
@ken-longfield
01/30/24 09:38:32PM
1,337 posts

Vintage dulcimer information sought


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thank you for the additional information Art. We will all wait until you get the dulcimer and you have more of chance to examine it. It poses some interesting questions and I hope we will be able to find the answers. I'm sure you will be able to get it in to playing condition. I've seen thin pegs like that on other dulcimers.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
01/30/24 09:38:18PM
2,157 posts

Vintage dulcimer information sought


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

*  I'm not sure either of those bridges is 'real'  -- they are both far too long and extend way past the sides of the fretboard, making it difficult to play without snagging yourself on the,
* If that first dark "bridge" is set into the fretboard I agree that is most likely the actual bridge; a simple test will prove it.
*  As Strumelia says, the top & back being wider than the sides is called a "fiddle edge" and is a common feature especially on older dulcimers.
*   The Wide and Narrow (not Tall and Short) fret spacing is a true Diatonic fret layout.  It's your dulcimer, you can of course add a 6+ fret..  But Why would you want to?  This dulcimer was obviously designed to be played in a traditional manner, not modern Chord-Melody style.  Why not appreciate it for what it is?


updated by @ken-hulme: 01/30/24 09:40:06PM
Art S
@art-s
01/30/24 07:42:57PM
24 posts

Vintage dulcimer information sought


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

We are at a disadvantage as I walked away from the store, then bought it over the phone. When I get the instrument I will get and share more detail. The bar is in fact grooved, and I am beginning to think that the first crude "bridge" is there to raise the strings up to level with the fretboard. Note that the board itself drops away at the tailpiece.

Strumelia
@strumelia
01/30/24 07:34:55PM
2,403 posts

Vintage dulcimer information sought


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

It should be easy enough to test on just one string to find out which of the two 'bridges' is the true bridge that allows the current frets to play in tune for scale (the distance between nut and bridge. I suspect the black one is the true bridge since it matches the nut, and the crude stick with the notches was simply put there to keep the strings at certain distances from each other (since the bridge has no notches and string spacing was likely originally just provided by the string holes at the tail).  But I see that the nut provided an extra slot for making a double-course melody string pair spacing instead of 4 equidistant.

Looks like a nice dulcimer, with that fiddle edge overhang, and such nice wood!

@motormike, it looks like the black bridge is actually cut into the body.


updated by @strumelia: 01/30/24 07:41:02PM
motormike
@motormike
01/30/24 07:26:05PM
16 posts

Vintage dulcimer information sought


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

What I'm thinking is that object by the bridge is a simple "noter" shoved under strings for storage.

Art S
@art-s
01/30/24 07:04:14PM
24 posts

Vintage dulcimer information sought


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Hi Ken. I knocked the photos down to get a few into the forum. The pegs are wood. I don’t see any markings inside through the sound holes. The frets run T, T,St, T, T, St, T, T, T, ST, which I think I have seen before. Can I add a 6½ fret? The top and back are slightly wider than the sides. Again I've seen that before, but forget the term that is used. It is currently set with four equidistant strings, but the bridge and nut seem to be cut for an optional double melody, as there are five slots. Presumably as I replace them, I can do what I want. Not having played it, I have no idea how accurate the frets are. I took pictures and walked away from it, then called back the next day and bought it. So I don't have it in my hands yet.

Ken Longfield
@ken-longfield
01/30/24 06:12:47PM
1,337 posts

Vintage dulcimer information sought


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

There isn't enough clarity in the photos to really give an informed opinion. I agree that there are four equidistant strings. I have no idea what the function of the bar in the front of the bridge. It appears to be wood and fitted to the width of the fret board.  It could be that what we are calling a bridge is just to space the strings apart and the bridge is that dark wood and may be moveable. I am interested in the pegs.Are they wood or metal? Is there no builder's label inside the dulcimer?

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

  65